Lower the Basket

Like a lot of white jewish guys I can’t dunk.  Like most guys I can deal with it in one of three ways, I can give up on it, I can work out and get above the rim, or I can lower the basket.

The last option works great when I’m in the driveway on my own hoop.  It doesn’t work so well when I go out to the Y and play even a pickup game.  If dunking is my goal I have to step up my game.  I have to go to the mountain.

Today the mountain came to the miner.

CCP released a devblog, lots of good stuff for frigate lovers, new destroyers, and big changes to mining barges.

  • Procurer/Skiff: primarily made for self-defense. Better mining rate than the ORE frig, good ore bay, but capable of having battleship-like EHP.
  • Retriever/Mackinaw: made for self-reliance. Has the largest ore bay, similear to the size of a jet can, second best mining output but less EHP than the procurer mining barge.
  • Covetor/hulk: ore bay is identical to its current cargo hold, little to average EHP, but best mining output. Basically made for group operations when players have industrials and protection to back them up.

This seems to be a response to forum whines about the survivability of mining ships.  Rather than players relying on themselves to make themselves better, or by banding together to work as a team, CCP has handed them ships that greatly increase the capability of miners to operate solo.  Let’s assume that a decently tanked hulk sits around 20k EHP.  A Procurer/Skiff with “Battleship-Like EHP” will likely end up with a MINIMUM of 50k EHP and probably 70-80k EHP.  Assuming a retriever/mack sits in between we are talking 35-50k EHP.  This gives miners greater resilience against ganks fine, they are happy for about a week.

Here’s the problem

The gankers will adjust.

This isn’t a solution.  This is a band-aid.  This fixes the symptoms.  The disease is still there.  The disease is the lack of adaptability in the mining community.  Lowering the basket makes it physically possible to dunk.  If I want to do it in a game there’s one other consideration.  If someone stands in front of the rim they can block you and no amount of lowering the rim will help you.  You have to deal with the other player.

You have to deal with the other player.

You Have to deal with the other player.

THE OTHER PLAYER.

THE OTHER PLAYER!!!!!

Because this is a Massively Multi-PLAYER game.  If your problem is the way in which other players play the game then you have to adjust how you play the game.  This might reduce he impact of some ganking strategies, it might make it possible for you to dunk, but it doesn’t make it impossible to get blocked.

I’m using it every time I can

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About Corelin

An Eve playing Fool who occasionally writes about the shenanigans he and his minions get up to.

Posted on June 14, 2012, in CCP Hijinx, PvE, PvP, Things I think I think. Bookmark the permalink. 19 Comments.

  1. I don’t think this is aimed at the un-adaptable parts of the mining community. They’re still going to go for maximum output (untanked hulks and covetors) and will still suffer the consequences accordingly. However, as Jester pointed out a few months ago (http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2012/04/price-is-right.html), if prudence dicates you dock up your mining ships every time a neutral appears in local because anything that sneezes at you will instapop whatever you’re flying, mining remains very unattractive. By making some higher-tank, lower output options, CCP gives smart miners (i.e. the ones who were already taking steps to avoid ganks) more options than ‘run away and hide and make no money’ to deal with gankers. And since they’ve repeatedly stated their intent to make mining a viable profession for non-bots, this seems like a very good start.

    Don’t worry; I’m sure there still will be plenty of idiots in Hulks for you to pop.

  2. You have to account for alpha, which is how most mining barges are destroyed. There needs to be a mining ship that can stand up under reps and doesn’t just vanish if four Catalysts or alpha-fit Thrashers appear on grid and open fire once.

    Otherwise, you’re stick with just warping off every time a destroyer lands in your belt, which simply. Is not. Fun.

    I’ll grant you it’s probably realistic, but EVE has to strike a balance between realism and fun game-play.

  3. Your point seems to be that miners are terrible and that they don’t adjust? That’s a fairly naive and immature view.

    This fixes the problem of risk:reward for highsec mining. The risk is currently very high, while it pays out the lease isk/hour of any activity in eve.

    Also, consider that tougher mining ships will give miners more incentive to venture into low/null for greater reward now that they can withstand a sneeze in their general direction from a terrible destroyer.

  4. As Archibald stated it really doesn’t effect anyone in 0.0… safety there is entirely in numbers/intel/defense response.

    This may have a larger effect in low sec since it can possibly make mining in low sec a viable option since you don’t die to the first volley as the ganker comes out of warp.

    In high sec it has it’s greatest effect… negating the 5 million destroyer ganking the untanked hulk in one shot. Now you are going to have to probably invest a T3 BC for an unassisted gank on the mining vessel instead of the destroyers used previously.

  5. If you want BS level tank use a BS…..
    an apoc or rohk mine just fine and represent a good train in terms of yield to survivability.

    However it’s nice ot see all the minning ships have a role..

  6. For Archibald: Do you suffer consequences solely because you max fire-power your cap ships to get the most out of them ?

    For Burke: Currently make 50,000,000/hr on our OPs with 2 Hulks and Orca support. Solo Ice Mining for 4 hours can yield around 260,000,000 if one already has the PI parts laying around. A FAR cRY from the now pathetically nerfed missions.

    You folks don’t even know what you are talking about.

    Debate is Dead.

    • 50M/hr with 3 people is horrible.

    • I’m not sure I understand what point you’re making, but yes. If I were to fit my Punisher out with straight heat sinks and tracking computers and put nothing into tank, yes, I would expect to suffer consequences. Ditto for miners – pre or post rebalancing – who max out mining at the expense of EHP. I see nothing in the dev blog to suggest that people who currently mine in this way will change their behavior at all; Hulk is still the most efficient miner and still has crap EHP.

  7. That’s 260,000,000 from Ice + PI intoFuel Blocks.

  8. New, big ore bays make can mining less necessary. Which reduces the number of targets for can flipping. Based on Greyscum’s prior statements, a reduction in can flipping seems to be something they want. Well, if they eliminate the need for Belt Police I can always take early retirement. :P

    As for the rest: yeah, I don’t think that going to matter. If someone wants your ship to go kablooie hard enough, it’ll go kablooie.

  9. Amen to that brother. Adapt or die.

  10. Whining = metagame. Whining that produces favorable changes in game = winning the metagame. Either whine harder and better than the carebears and convince CCP of the error of their ways, or HTFU, learn the new rules, and get back to tear harvesting like gankers have always done.

    • Wow. Ya know I honestly never thought of it in that light.
      Maybe we ebil PvPers need to swallow our pride and dish up some “delicious tears” of our own… especially if long-term it pays off with easier slam-dunks. ;-)

  11. “Rather than players relying on themselves to make themselves better, or by banding together to work as a team, CCP has handed them ships that greatly increase the capability of miners to operate solo.”

    “Jester, most people this Hulkageddon have been soloing ships. Rarely do you need two. Using more is burning resources”

    Funny.

  12. I’m note quite sure what you’re getting at: even with these changes, Miners still have to adapt to the gankers – just they now might have more actually reasonable options to do so, without having to go to abominations like mining Rokhs. And as far as I read the forum thread, the smart miners (they do exist) realize that this is not meant to be a safe-button for miners, just a means to better balance yield vs. risk . PvP ships constantly get buffed in this regard, and nobody is complaining about ‘lowering the basket’ when it happens.

    And as as you said, gankers will adapt anyway, so what exactly is your point?

  13. I disagree – because pretty much all the responses I have seen asking miners to adapt follow the vein: mine in a battleship. I don’t think this is a viable response because it obsoletes a whole group of ships – which is something CCP explicity is trying to avoid with their ship rebalancing.´

    You are right that the idiots will still be idiots – so there will still no doubt be plenty of folks in weakly tanked Hulks that can be instapopped. For the clever miner – and there are a great many of them out there – this now introduces a whole bunch of newer options and choices.

    Choices. Choices are one of the best things about EVE. Previously with mining barges – if one was mining minerals – the only choice was a Hulk. Now by the sounds of it one will have viable choices between the three different ships. That can only be good.

    On the other side, some gankers will whine and thrash about. Others, the good players, will adapt.

    So this change looks like it will benefit the good players of both persuasion, while the bad players will likely still be idiots and vulnerable. All in all I think that is just about an optimum result.

  14. This is exactly the sort of thing I’ve been waiting to read since that dev post.

    Griefer tears, best tears.

  15. All these changes do is make life a little easier for n00b miners.

    Look at the bright side, when a n00b miner makes it into a Hulk, the prospect of being ganked will still be entirely alien to him, therefore the corresponding tears ought to be pretty sweet. :)

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