I Want You to Want Me!

Mord FiddleJan 23, 8:33 pm

Well, now you’re just ignoring me. ;) Why do you believe people should be forced out of highsec?

I haven’t been ignoring you Mord.  I’ve been puzzling out a proper, non-flippant answer.  The short version is:  I don’t want to force people to do anything.  This is EvE.  I want them to move of their own accord, for reasons that make sense to them at the time.

I write a blog so you get the long version for free -

I think it’s fantastic that there’s people who stop travelling out when the sec status starts looking yellow.  They turn around and scamper back.  They find their rut and they travel it doing the things they like for as long as they want.  It’s fantastic.  They are enjoying the game their way.

The problem is they are likely engaging in single-player EvE.  It may actually be a small group, but they are not really doing much to create content for the greater community, and they aren’t terribly likely to stick around according to CCP’s metrics.  CCP has stated repeatedly that players are far more likely to stick around if they are engaging with other players socially.  Usually this means a corp/alliance.  I think there’s two reasons for this.  A player who works with other players is more willing to share in risks, and a player who is confronted with adversity is far more likely to recognize the scope of them, and overcome them either by getting advice before the adversity and mitigating their risk or by having a support network that can soften the blow with recovery efforts.

Let’s zoom out a stage.

Many, if not most, highsec-only players believe that they are, or at least should be, totally safe as long as they are playing in highsec, and not doing anything aggressive towards another player.  They think that their sole responsibility for self-preservation is to keep themselves out of 0.4 and lower sec status systems.  They do not think to protect themselves from people willing to lose a ship to destroy what they are flying.  When they do lose a ship to people willing to make that effort they blame it not on themselves for failing to protect themselves, but on the gankers, and not in such a way as to give them credit.  They do not recognize that self-preservation is forever and always their own responsibility and that a reliance on CONCORD and other players forbearance is a fickle means of protecting ones hard-earned isk.

This is not to say that gankers are all wonderful people that shit rainbows.  Some of them are bullies, some of them are jerks, some of them are people playing the game their own way.  Just like the miners.  The difference is in how they define their way, and how they understand the game.

Now if a miner belongs to a corp that does have a support they can still lose their shit, but they aren’t likely to leave the game.  As long as the corp supports them.  I have lost some EMBARRASSING ships.  However I had corpmates who supported me.  I had a community I belonged to, and who helped me see the scope of things and how unimportant one miserable Drake was.

Eventually that community led me to branch out.  To see PvP not as an evil practice to be avoided, but a fun and challenging (but hopefully not too challenging) focus of the game.  I want people to see as many reasons as possible to leave highsec, and I want highsec to be as limited as possible in pursuit of that goal.  Not every player is going to get involved in blowing up other players spaceships.  At least not directly.  However, at some point in his EvE career, every player needs to realize that pvp is the foundation of the game, and can happen to anyone at any time.  The players least likely to understand this are the highsec carebears who never venture beyond 0.5 for fear of encountering… well… EvE.

I want production to be more practical and useful in low/null to make the decision on where to manufacture goods to actually involve a choice other than “Safest area with the most available slots = win for me!”

I want resources to be more accessible and valuable in low/null to create an economic push so that veld isn’t always a “top 3″ mineral when it comes to value.

I want low/null to have useful and unique mechanics that make them more fun and enjoyable.

Some of these already exist.  The last one especially has quite a few options, but there still isn’t enough to drive the great hordes out of highsec empire.  Having unique resources that cannot be collected in highsec space helps.  Having unique gameplay opportunities, like wormholes, or FW, helps.  Having organizations that help even the newest players capitalize on the opportunities to be found below 0.4 helps.  Look at Goons and TEST.  They can and will take players still in awe at the power of their reaper, slap them in a rifter and throw them to a system with a name like VFK.  They will bring them in, teach them to play and understand the game, and give them an opportunity to grow.  Sure they can be an embarrassment to the community, but they also contribute to the community.  Look at the rage being spouted by highsec carebears almost every day over at minerbumping.com and you will see just how “noble” the pvp-averse carebears can be.

So no.  No I don’t want to force people out of highsec.  I want them to want to move out themselves.  I want them to go out and create content of their own and discover the real awe of EvE.  The ability to drive your storyline wherever you want it, not just Motsu station.

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About Corelin

An Eve playing Fool who occasionally writes about the shenanigans he and his minions get up to.

Posted on January 24, 2013, in Meta, PvE, PvP, Things I think I think, Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink. 20 Comments.

  1. “Many, if not most, highsec-only players believe that they are, or at least should be, totally safe as long as they are playing in highsec, and not doing anything aggressive towards another player.”

    Do you have numbers to back up this statement?

  2. “I want resources to be more accessible and valuable in low/null to create an economic push so that veld isn’t always a “top 3″ mineral when it comes to value.”

    It’s not. Even in hisec, the only ore behind Veldspar is Omber.

  3. “The ability to drive your storyline wherever you want it, not just Motsu station.”

    And what if given the choice they choose Motsu station for their story?

    Go to any other country and look at the restaurants. Count up the tourists, then go to McDonalds and see how many tourists have flown 1/2 way around the world to eat a Big Mac.

    You aren’t going to change behaviors by fiddling with incentives. The overwhelming advantages that veterans and existing organizations have in Eve means that unless HS players specifically integrate into existing structures their only other choice in low/null is to DIAF.

    Part of the psychology is in part not wanting to give up MY story for the GOONS/TEST story. A player moving to low / null isn’t writing their own story (except for a rare few) they are writing themselves into a story already being told by others.

    What CCP didn’t put in their wonderful butterfly trailer is that 99.99% of the time the butterfly gets crushed and no one gives a damn 2 minutes after it’s over.

    • Causality is a more “real” EvE trailer than Butterfly Effect ever was. Both are pretty awesome though.

      EvE has the challenge of putting players into a situation where they aren’t the big badass hero. You aren’t killing Deathwing, or saving the world from aliens/demons/zombies. Sometimes you even LOSE! That being said, the possibility of failure is what makes every success you achieve so rewarding. Why deny the possibility of success because you might fail?

    • “The overwhelming advantages that veterans and existing organizations have in Eve means that unless HS players specifically integrate into existing structures their only other choice in low/null is to DIAF.”

      There is an entire *vibrant* community of solo players out in nullsec & lowsec so your assertion that one must join an existing organisation simply isn’t true. Not to mention that lower class wormholes (up to C3) are riddled with smaller industrial primarily carebear-with-claws corporations.
      There’s entire ingame channels filled with people who play EVE primarily solo in lowsec and nullsec (‘Bringing Solo Back’ is the largest, but there’s other like ‘The Autocannon’ too).

  4. You say you don’t want to move people to Lo & Null but that you “…want them to move of their own accord.” Uh… it’s the same thing man, it’s still where YOU want them to be, not where THEY want to be. You believe, based on CCP player metrics, that single-player EvE (1) is a primarily a Hisec playstyle and (2) is not “good” for CCP and hence not good for EvE. And (3) you believe the EvE is primarily a PvP game. You just need everyone to see that PvP is not ‘ebil’ and they should enjoy it too… uh, hate to say this outloud but… this is all just a slightly nicer, longer rewording of HTFU man.

    If EvE is a real sandbox, then ALL playstyles from OMCs (Once Man Corps) to Coalitions (Alliances working together, for which there is no game mechanic) should be not only allowed, but supported… ALL playstyles.

    Once again this is another call to LIMIT the game to PvP centric play… and ANY limit on EvE gameplay moves us away from the sandbox ideal.

    Now, before I go any farther let me make it plain, I do NOT EVER want to see PvP nerfed in EvE. If there is ever a PvP Feee zone… or a PvP Opt-out Button of ANY KIND, I will unsub, period. I have NO issue with PvP as it works in EvE. It is part of the sandbox Ideal. Freedom without Chaos. With Hi, Lo, Null and Negsec we have just enough ‘rules’ to support a huge range and variety of playstyles that allow for interaction between players without any ONE playstyle being dominant… just as no one ship is dominant in all engagements.

    That said, lemme ask you… if EvE is a PvP centric game why, of the twelve ‘careers’ CCP advertises on the EVE Online site (http://www.eveonline.com/sandbox/) are SIX of them PvE centric without ANY mention of Combat as a part of the career? Did they just miss that?

    I’ll tell you why, its because EvE IS A SANDBOX… and not everybody has to play the way ANYONE ELSE likes. Period. Oh you do have to agree to the PvP mechanics in EvE… but you don’t HAVE to play that game or live in those area’s where it is a more prevalent playstyle… You know me, I live in Negative Security space, -1.0, the MOST dangerous sector of EvE… and I HATE “Surprise Buttsex”… but I “accept” it for the rewards I have… but I will most likely never live in Lo or Null… by MY Choice, no one else’s.

    Freedom to choose. Freedom to play EvE YOUR way… and to allow all others the same grace, even those with ebil intent and a gank fitted Nado fleet to back it up, to play their way too. =]

  5. Are we doing this again?

    Sandbox … yada yada … pvp… yada yada … play my way …. carebear …null sec … high sec … (yawn) … broken …

  6. You say you don’t want to move people to Lo & Null but that you “…want them to move of their own accord.” Uh… it’s the same thing man, it’s still where YOU want them to be, not where THEY want to be.

    You believe, based on CCP player metrics, that single-player EvE
    (1) is a primarily a Hisec playstyle and;
    (2) is not “good” for CCP and hence not good for EvE, and
    (3) that EvE is primarily a PvP game.

    You just need everyone to see that PvP is not ‘ebil’ and they should enjoy it too… uh, hate to say this out loud but… this is all just a slightly nicer, longer rewording of HTFU man.

    If EvE is a real sandbox, then ALL playstyles from OMCs (Once Man Corps) to Coalitions (Alliances working together, for which there is no game mechanic) should be accepted and supported… ALL playstyles.

    Once again this is another call to LIMIT the game to PvP centric play… and ANY limit on EvE any gameplay moves us away from the sandbox ideal.

    Now, before I go any farther let me make it plain, I do NOT EVER want to see PvP nerfed in EvE. If there is ever a PvP Free zone… or a PvP Opt-out Button of ANY KIND, I will most likely unsub.

    PvP as it works right now in EvE is part of the sandbox Ideal. Freedom without Chaos. With Hi, Lo, Null and Negsec we have just enough ‘rules’ to support a huge range and variety of playstyles that allow for interaction between players without any ONE playstyle being dominant… just as no one ship is dominant in all engagements.

    Freedom to choose. Freedom to play the game as you see fit… and to respect that all other players have the same grace… those who want to turn their brains to mush with the droning of the mining lazors… and those with ebil intent and a gank fitted Nado fleet to back it up. =]

    • I was very imprecise in my language here. I blame it on the BK I ate last night, and then returned early this morning.

      I don’t want them to leave their chosen playstyle. I want them to contribute to mine. Unfortunately the tools that the highsec players tend towards: Farmable missions, semi-afk mining, and the industry interface that I can’t even begin to describe, do not really offer them that many opportunities to write themselves into my story, and often make them seek separation from my content.

      Yes I’m being selfish, and egotistical, but you’ve read my blog quite a bit and you knew that I was those things coming in. I want more interaction. I would like to see incentives from CCP to create those interactions. Incursions were FANTASTIC for that. Suddenly there was this huge, vital, inventive carebear community that was looking to branch out and DO things and CREATE content for other players, sadly CCPs heavy-handed nerf rather shattered those nascent communities, but that potential is still there. CCP needs to find a way to unlock it.

  7. You want them to leave hi-sec? For what? More hi-sec? This Goon vs. TEST tickle fight has exposed the ugly truth about the current environment in 0.0. The constant refrain from the anti-hi sec guys has been that miners and missioners are too “risk averse”.

    Now we have the two biggest entities in Eve not having an all out war because it might cut into moon goo profits. Talk about risk averse…

    Let the hi-seccers stay where they choose…there is nothing new for them out in null sec. Just more care bears who never suffer real loss because their ships are replaced for them and agreements are in place to keep fighting at the level of a slap fight.

    Better off joining RvB

  8. Agnar Volta RvB

    All these rationals about populations in EVE break down at the same point: HS people as a single group with identical interests and characteristics.

    CCP understood that and came up with a new model of thinking, they use words like “enablers”, “lurkers”, “small gang leaders”, etc… This new models is much more precise in describing behavior and interests of groups them simply labels that people in blogs are still attached to.

    Also ISK is not a motivator for most people in EVE, it’s just like your job, you do it for the money, but you enjoy it or not based in different things that are not a financial reward, things like feeling of achievement, recognition, etc… So CCP is moving on on this believe as well as you can see by the recent word “game play” included in all their future designs.

    No offense, but your article fail in every aspect of understanding EVE population, the same discourse that you are using is the one that lead to bad changes in the past like the Sov system, moon mining, the re balancing in anomalies in 00 etc…

    Add value and they will come has been proved false every time. See the FW plex farming in low if you need an example. It was the most profitable activity in EVE for a while that could be done with 2 week alt, and the “hordes” of HS dwellers didn’t move there, just a small subset of players took advantage of it.

    To have people moving from HS to Low and Null you need to make it possible that the same behavior that they enjoy can be reproduce over there: I need to “lurk” in the place for while, get to know people that live there, what are the social rules of the place find a “small gang leader” to show me the ropes and the fun stuff, take my position as an “enabler” or “instigator” in the group and never go back to HS.

    That is why groups like Reddit and Goons are so successful, people do all this ritual in their forums and when they jump in the game straight to null they already have their role, have the social connections and just go about business.

    Can I do this now without being affiliated to one of these groups? No, can’t lurk in null or low for long before being hunted and podded back to HS without getting to know anyone. To make matters worst alliances and pirate corps have rules to people not to talk in the Local channel, don’t know why exactly, maybe is harder to hunt people if you get to know them?

    Sorry for the wall of text, but I’m tired of people listening to Pirates, Alliances and old school CCP devs that are the ones that created this environment that keeps me in HS instead of listening to HS people like me that PVP in RvB and would like to move to these places but don’t have a way to do it.

  9. I am in no way frustrated to be at the local game store and realizing that all my comments but one have been eaten by the mobile wordpress app.

  10. LOL That’s gotta Suc! I been wonderin whereyou been man! Waiting on replies… =]

  11. With respect, because I think you’re a very good writer and are thoughtful when you allow yourself the time, you haven’t thought this through . These don’t sound like your thoughts. This sounds like you parroting or rephrasing what you’ve heard elsewhere.

    There are many players who seldom leave highsec, but deliver a great deal in terms of content, and who do a great deal to nurture and encourage new players. I know of many highsec corporations and alliances that have been in the game longer than you or me – and I’ve been here for a few years.

    You don’t know their stories, or the stories of the players who may have learned the basics from them and gone on to lowsec or nullsec. Are some of them jerks? Of course. Point me to any part of Eve: Highsec, lowsec, NPC nullsec or Sovereign nullsec and I will show you a near equal distribution of jerks, mentors, solid wingmen and outright heroes in each.

    Never, ever judge a fellow capsuleer by where he flies. Never assume that because he flies with a small corporation, or doesn’t fly what he can’t afford to lose into peril, that he lacks courage or that you won’t value him on your wing one day.

    And even if he never flies into low or nullsec, if he spends all his New Eden days in a highsec corporation or alliance and never fires a shot in anger, he does his part in this game. His story may not be glorious or even interesting as you judge such things, but it has every bit as much value to him as yours does to you. And the larger game benefits from both, though sometimes you may not see why.

    This is the genius of Eve: We all have it in our hands to write a story – our story – and add it to the larger narrative. It is the aggregate of our stories, humble, daring, ignoble or epic, that define this game. We should be slow to make ourselves the judge of which are worthy or not.

    After all, without Eumaeus, the story of Odysseus would have ended badly. And while we never meet the smiths who forged Narsil or Sting, their hands have their part in the telling of the tale.

    • I tend to think in terms of “threat assessment” when it comes to where I am. I am far more likely to run into someone who is a threat outside of highsec. If you took the population of Motsu and dropped them in AZ3 I would likely be able to sail through most of them in a badger, nullsec rules or not. If you took the population of AZ3 or VFK and dropped them there I sure as hell wouldn’t undock my mission tanked Tengu with no buffer. Or a PvP tanked Tengu with lots of buffer for that matter.

  12. I disagree with your experiences here, as my own have shown that low/nullsec is anti-interaction and have negative social pressure. In highsec there is a basic mechanism for ensuring people can be together without clashing immediately. I rather enjoyed my n00b days in motsu where ninja salvagers and pvp baiters invaded my mission regularly. It is also interesting competing with 2000 guys in jita on trade, or joining strangers in incursions or even just plain old missions when friends not available.

    Compare that with my stays in nullsec, where the common rule is “hide if non-blue in system” with failure punished by shaming. Frankly losing billions is not a problem for me and I’ve done them in bad speculative trade, however losing a few million in spaceships that ends up on a killboard means a eternity of shittalk. After that, group affiliation also means more shittalk by other groups. The requirement for scale also means you are at the mercy of the leadership who controls access to your assets, and their abilities further controls your access to content and other activity while they may attempt to exploit you for their own goals. On top of that, events completely outside of your control can evict your entire group.

    The requirement for operation security means other people are also very dangerous anyways. You never know if a spy is channeling intel to set up a gank, if that cyno is actually safe, if the logi guy that didn’t accept collateral and or asset in a shared POS is safe from theft,

    The guys in highsec that could gain nothing from you: now they can be a community. In activities where interdependencies results in points of failure, paranoia on a social and operational level with true self reliance is necessary.

    And that is not fun.

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