Hans JagerBlitzen has already lost my Votes

Yes, sergeant.  Without a fight.  This man can make water run uphill and he has a commander.  I love the idea of giving in without a fight.  I’ve fought for ten years and giving in without a fight is what I’ve always wanted to do.”

– Terry Pratchett, Jingo

With this quote Hans Jagerblitzen manages to show bigotry and ignorance all at once.

I’m going to give you my honest opinion here, though it will undoubtedly piss a few people off. I
consider predatory high sec war declarations to be one of the cheapest forms of PvP available in
the game. Truly hardcore PvP pilots move to low sec or null sec and seek out armed, skilled
opponents who present a genuine challenge in return. Picking on a weaker corp and attacking
them when you know they cannot fight back is some pretty unimpressive business. It’s not worth
glorifying, and I refuse to call this kind of non-consensual PvP one of the “defining features of EvE”
because there’s just so many cooler things you can do in the sandbox.

While I am all for wardec mechanics that end the shenanigans that have become so dominant in highsec I don’t want them to come from someone who considers the kind of PvP I enjoyed at first “Cheap.”  As I have said in the past bigotry towards one form of PvP or another does not become an EvE player.

In general if you get wardecced by someone like Suddenly Ninjas, or a while ago The Fancy Hats.  Or REALLY Back in the day TRAPS, you did something to call down the thunder.  Forming a corporation when you cannot defend yourself is a foolish act.  Foolishness in EvE come with a price.  In ISK.  Many corps get a pass because they are simply too small to worry about.  Some draw fire.  Mining ops with cans out and a dozen ships, huge expensive mission running battle ships with a 4 month old toon, mouthing off in local demonstrating nothing but your ignorance.  These people tend to get hit and tend to scream “Oh woe is me!”

Picking fights you know you can win is the core of PvP.  If you win all or most of your fights you will grow and enhance both your prestige and your wallet if you get enough sexy kills.  If you consistently show up and lose because you failed to plan, you can talk all you want about “goodfights” but no one is going to X up after a while.  In Highsec sometimes it’s clubbing baby seals, and sometimes it’s dealing with fighting on station against people with more RR on call than a good nullsec blobfest.

Fancy Hats is in the process of finding a new Low-Sec home.  We like the free-form fighting, we like knowing that we can shoot people without going through hoops.  Part of the reason we gave up on highsec long ago is the shenanigans with wardecs have overcome any possible enjoyment from them.  The solution to wardecs will undoubtedly be complex, however calling people names and pointing fingers doesn’t solve problems.  It creates them.  With this one paragraph Hans has toasted his chance with me.

You want to solve the problem Hans?  Instead of the EvE tutorial encouraging nooblets to start their own corp, have the tutorial explicitly state the vulnerabilities of a corporation and that many corps have pub rooms that they will let you join that will keep 2 and 3 week old players away from the mean old men of EvE.

I'm using it every time I can

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About Corelin

An Eve playing Fool who occasionally writes about the shenanigans he and his minions get up to.

Posted on February 9, 2012, in CSM Hijinks, Things I think I think. Bookmark the permalink. 15 Comments.

  1. I’m going to disagree with this, boss. You make some excellent points, as usual, but at the same time ignore some very good points made by the candidate in question (others can read about them here: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1202/Hans_Jagerblitzen_for_CSM7.pdf).

    The big take-away for me in this matter is not that he fundamentally disagrees with the play style described in this blog entry (damn, it’d be boring if everyone agreed all the time), even while I’d like to see him debate that point a little more closely and openly with someone who feels as clearly as you about it. But if we continue reading past that point, we find that despite disagreeing he would still act to maintain high sec wardecs. To, in fact, make them reasonably possible again, not simply technically possible … just with an additional cost the logic for which is presented and is _not_ necessarily unreasonable. As it is, high sec wardecs are essentially dead on the vine, as we well know; if the candidate has his way, and – as it would seem to me he’s saying – they could return to a certain norm again, isn’t that what this blog says it wants?

    I too was disturbed when I first saw his position, but then I considered it a bit more dispassionately, to put it all in context and avoid the knee-jerk reaction which is rarely the best one to have. I counsel the same.

  2. Discouraging new players from joining or creating new Corps is not a good thing for EVE. That’s a very strong social hook, and in a game like EVE, is very necessary to get someone new invested in the game to the point that they actually care. EVE is a very easy game to walk away from after 10 days or so.

    Just from the quote you have, it seems all Hans is against vet Corps dec’ing targets that can’t defend themselves, and did not ask for trouble. If someone is talking in local, I doubt they are going to turn around and wonder why they are in a war. Also I doubt anyone is going to feel bad for such a player.

    But as someone who is running a fairly new-ish Corp, with a lot of fresh pilots, I can tell you we have been war-dec’ed by people who are not looking for a fight or responding to something we did; they simply get their lulz from blowing up a week-old pilot running a lvl 1 mission, mostly because that’s about all they can kill despite flying expensive ships and having plenty of SP. That’s not PvP, and just like the person talking in local, those are not the type of players you really need to defend or feel bad for. The game would be better without them.

    We are friendly with one Corp that war-dec’es large high-sec alliances. They are a 5 man Corp, and enjoy the challenge that fighting a 100+ pilot entity brings. Often after a war they will offer advice to the alliance, and their goal is never to beat someone into submission (quitting). I doubt Hans is looking to stop this kind of activity.

    • SynCaine, do you think your corp deserves special protections because you are incapable of defending yourself from the people who have chosen to attack you?

      There are multiple ways to protect yourself. Don’t join a player corp unless either you can take care of yourself, for example knowing better than to run missions during a wardec, or the corporation you are attempting to join can handle the heat.

      EvE is unique in that in theory you can access “Endgame content” 10 minutes into your experience. It doesn’t mean that you are ready for it. To use a pool analogy just because you can go into the deep end doesn’t mean you know how to swim, it simply means you can literally get in over your head. Planning is still on you.

      You are right that sometimes this drives people out of the game, and some of them may have gone on to be good players and some of them might not have. Just because Highsec is the safest space doesn’t mean it is safe and players need to learn to respect that. If they cannot handle the fact that there is a level of risk in highsec then EvE will likely not be the game for them. I have been a victim of griefers I have had a ship with billions in it ganked. Twice in fact because I am a moron. My corp when I started out got griefed nearly out of existence and it made me a better player. We lost people. Losing wars does that whether you are nooblets corp of carebear stares or bittervets corp of hardassed nullsecers. The proportions are higher in younger players but they always are.

      One of your assumptions is that you HAVE to ask for trouble. Fancy Hats and TRAPS targets usually did. They may not feel that whatever actions they took deserved a wardec, but what do they lose by dropping into an NPC corp? Access to the corp chat channel? Lower Taxes?

      One of the assumptions I use when I play EvE is that I am owed nothing but what I can take. New players can take less, and frankly that is the way it is in every game. The contrast is more stark in EvE because they are in competition with bittervets.

      The first point you make actually has more to do with the tutorial than with the state of PvP, PvE or anything. EvE is a slow game. It is a confusing game and it is a game that shows you the universe and sticks you in a ship that appears very unexciting. You simply HAVE to find some sort of community early on or you will not stick it out. THIS DOES NOT MEAN A CORPORATION. I invite a LOT of the people I kill to Hat Box where they can learn what happened to them if they got clubbed like a baby seal. Some of my best recruits have been people who got utterly clobbered their first time out.

      All of this pales in comparison to my last point. Hans portrays himself as the universal candidate for highsec then spits on a cornerstone of highsec pvp. well fie on you. You think CCP will let Hans steer the discussion in a meaningful way? You think Mittens will? Have you listened to Mittens rants on the podcasts? All Hans brings to the table is another bigoted point of view. I’m all for helping new players, but not in a way that makes them feel like they EVER deserve special protections.

      • Special protection? No.
        Game mechanics that discourage vets from intentionally picking on new players and driving them away from the game? Yes.

        Again, the people I am talking about are the ‘PvPers’ who only ‘PvP’ against new players that don’t have a clue of what’s going on, but tried the game because of a buddy or other social tie. I have zero respect for such players, and again, believe the game would be better off without them.

        What value is added to the game by making it so easy for vets to ‘club baby seals’? You don’t gain any ISK, you don’t gain PvP experience or a gf, and you don’t attract or retain players of any real value.

        All you allow is for some ‘child’ to get his lulz. Is that really worth defending?

  3. ” If someone is talking in local, I doubt they are going to turn around and wonder why they are in a war. Also I doubt anyone is going to feel bad for such a player.”

    Ya know I always wondered about that.
    EVE is supposed to be a social game, but you can’t be social in local without worry about being “noticed” and wardecced? Most of the corps I’ve seen emphasize a “NO TALKING in LOCAL EVAR!!! NO, NYET, NEIN, NO IN CHINESE, NO IN JAPANESE, NOOO!!!” philosophy … I’m glad I’ve always belonged to organizations that not only encourage yapping in local, but even skillful smacking and trolling.
    Granted you don’t want Herpa Derpa, the Level 50 N00blet, “durr hurr hurr”ing it up in local to be the “face” of your organization to others…but at the same time, if that person is truly that DERP…why again do you want them around period? Just saying.

    What I find really funny is people who live in trade hubs and wonder why they get decced by “ebil piwates” wanting easy (and possibly profitable) kills…that one is a true “derp” to me.

  4. “Picking fights you know you can win is the core of PvP.”

    IMO Picking fights you know you can win is actually the worst mentality in eve.

    “If you win all or most of your fights you will grow and enhance both your prestige and your wallet if you get enough sexy kills.”

    Not in my book. You grow in prestige if you killboard shows you can win difficult fights. Fights you didn’t know you could win but had the guts to try anyway and still got a kill.

    Perhaps we just value different things. You value the play it safe style. I value the have fun and challenge yourself style.

  5. THFC Star is correct. I support lifting the wardec shield, I think every player in player corp should be wardeccable anytime, anywhere. I also said that players should be able to remain in NPC corps if they really don’t want that risk. If a player joins a player corp, by all means!! Gank away. I thought I’ve been pretty consistent on this.

    I have also already said in my main thread that I’m taking a firm campaign stance on any ship, being able to be blown up anywhere, anytime.

    There is tremendous difference between not enjoying a form of PvP because you don’t find it challenging or rewarding (rewards in my case are not about the killmails or the isk) and wanting to “spit on it”.

    My only point regarding this form of PvP is that it should be the most challenging, from a mechanical standpoint. That’s the point of high security, it punishes (but should never RESTRICT) high sec piracy.

    I want corps like Fancy Hats, Suddenly Ninjas, etc. to be respected because they’ve worked hard for those kills, so I think that CONCORD should still be tough on low sec status players in high security space, and tougher the close you get to 1.0.

    My statement was solely about the type of PvP I enjoy, and what I don’t consider that impressive. If that insults you, fine! I’m not going to kiss everyone’s ass for votes. I’d rather speak the truth about how I feel.

    I just think you can find an activity boring but still defend its right to be in the game, for those like yourself that DO enjoy it. Hence, my firm and consistent stances on lifting the dec shield and continuing to protect the core principle that you should be able to blow up any ship, any time, anywhere.

    • Hans. In my not so humble opinion the CSM doesn’t tell CCP what to do. Their words and the way they use them influence CCP as to what paths to take. By calling it cheap you make it look like something CCP can throw away. You insult people who do work at it and find “Baby seals” whose pelts are valuable, or who can be brought from “sealhood” into “harsh angry bittervet-hood”

  6. I never said I had any intention of telling CCP what to do. If the CSM did have that power, I’d tell them to lift the wardec shield and to never ever create a game mechanics where you couldn’t shoot another player anywhere in space, because it would break EvE for what it is. A game of consequences.

    As someone who’s own game play style has not been well protected or represented at the CSM level, I’d be an absolute hypocrite if I took office and yelled BANHAMMER on highsec PvP, because I didn’t like it. Not my right, not my place, and I hate forcing one gameplay style on another, because it decreases diversity.

    I said what I said to demonstrate that I favor risk / reward balance, meaning that if those baby seal pelts are lucrative, you should be risking a lot to get them. Ganking should decrease in frequency (or at least become more difficult) as you get closer to 1.0 space.

    My statement was directed at younger players who might overreact to the fact that I will always fight to protect the existence of a high sec gank.

    Bigotry by definition is “stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one’s own.”

    Fighting to always protect the ability for someone like yourself to gank a noob, (despite the fact that I don’t find it impressive) by definition clears me of the bigot name.

    Like I said earlier, all I can do is reiterate my principles, which haven’t changed. If I’ve lost your vote, no hard feelings! I can’t pander to everyone. I just hope you realize that there’s a difference between activities I don’t personally enjoy, and those that I would try to have CCP “throw away”.

    • It’s not the job of CCP to make the valuable pelts hard to get off another player. A 4 month old toon in a faction-fitted faction ship is going to get targeted. If he brings it out during a war he is likely to lose it and he should.

      You portray yourself as a candidate with the voice of high sec. Fine. Fix your verbiage, calling something “cheap” from an advisory position means that you are using your influence with CCP to hurt THAT aspect. As a potential CSM candidate advising CCP and being aware of how you communicate is of the utmost importance.

  7. You’re absolutely right, and I appreciate you holding me to a high standard of conduct. I’m not going to go back and constantly revise my document, but I will certainly watch the words I use in the future, so as not to come off as punitive or insulting. Thank you for your advice.

  8. I agree entirely with your assessment here; I think that Hans has an excellent view of lowsec and nullsec and knows what he’s talking about, but I very much agree that war declarations should be something that are a routine matter of defending yourself in hisec. Forming a corporation with no ability to defend yourself really is folly; rather than providing caretaker mechanics for the defender, I believe that it the weight of responsibility lies on them to be able to fight back or negotiate a peace.

    I believe that, with some fixes, hisec wardec PVP should be an excellent launching point for any aspiring PVPer’s career — even more than it is already.

    I am running for CSM:
    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=67674

    A link in the second post leads to some of the ideas I’ve had for developing hisec wardec mechanics. I hope you will consider my candidacy.

  9. While you are no doubt a prestigious and skilled high sec baby seal clubber, I can’t help help noticing what appears to be something of a self-contradiction in your argument. As you said, “bigotry towards one form of PvP or another does not become an EvE player.” Certainly this is a noble sentiment. However, in the very next paragraph you show what would appear to be a distinct hatred toward the peaceful mission running baby seals of high security space… “huge expensive mission running battle ships with a 4 month old toon, mouthing off in local demonstrating nothing but your ignorance.” I am deeply saddened that you feel the need to to brashly assert your superiority over such a group that you have already clearly dominated in your roll as the PVP God you are.

    Baby seals are people too, good sir. They are people too.

    • By no means are all of my kills baby seals. I have hunted them in the past and I probably will again, conditions permitting. I’ve been from deep nullsec to lowsec to wormholes to the hell that is Jitamart. It isn’t that I hate that 4 month old toon. It’s just that I have a MUCH better use for his shinies than he does at 4 months.

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